How To Create Awesome Online Courses with David Siteman Garland

In this episode we speak with David Siteman Garland of The Rise to the Top and Create Awesome Online Courses. We chat about one of the best models to monetization online and a look at crucial parts of creating awesome online courses.

David Siteman Garland is the creator/host of one of world wide web’s most popular and longest running shows, blog & resources The Rise To The Top: THE #1 Badass Show, Resource & Community For Mediapreneurs.


  • The Rise To The Top – David’s history .
  • Online Courses – Saleability and Leverage
  • System Development – Crucial points on how to create Awesome Online Courses


Intro: Welcome to the brave new world of cost effective communications. Tips, trips and tricks. How to’s, why to’s and what not to dos and using the power of web based content marketing to easily promote whatever you’d like. Welcome to “The Multimedia Marketing Show” with Jake Hower.

Jake: Welcome back to the show, Listener. I’m your host Jake Hower. You’re listening to “The Multimedia Marketing Show” and this is Episode 25. Okay, in this episode we have got David Siteman Garland, from “The Rise to the Top” to speak about “Creating Awesome Online Courses”.

Now this is something which I know you would certainly be interested. It’s one of the best models to monetisation online so this interview is about 30 minutes long. We look at the crucial parts of creating an online course and it may not be what you think so let’s get sucked straight in to this interview right now. Stay tuned and we’ll see you on the other side.

Segue: We’ll be right back with more of the Multimedia Marketing Show but first this suggestion. Make sure that you don’t miss a single episode by subscribing to us via iTunes and don’t forget to like Jake on Facebook, follow him on Twitter and sign up for email notifications at Then you’ll be the first to know when new episodes are available. Now let’s get back to “The Multimedia Marketing Show” with Jake Hower.

Jake: Okay, welcome back, Listeners. As discussed at the top of the episode, today’s guest is David Siteman Garland, from “The Rise to the Top”.

David, how are you?

David: Jake, I am fantastic. I love the accent. I’m ready to go. I’m fired up.

Jake: Yes. It’s certainly different to most of your guests that you bring on your own show. Now in today’s episode we’re going to look at how David goes about creating some of his courses. He’s got a number of courses now that he’s done his part of “The Rise to the Top” and you can definitely say he’s an expert in that. So we’re going to look at that today.

David, for our listeners, why don’t you give us a little bit of context as to who you are and where you’ve got to, to this point?

David: Sure. In a nutshell, basically what I’m best known online for is; I have a site called “The Rise to the Top” which is what I call- the number one resource from Mediapreneurs. It’s for people that create content sites, whether you do podcast, blogging, online videos or whatever it might be, we are a resource to help people out, whether it’s growing audience and making money or all that stuff. In 2008, I started online, things have twisted and turned a lot since then, to say the least but I had no idea what I was doing in 2008.

I started an interview show called “The Rise to the Top” back then, it’s how it all started as an interview show. I’d bring on successful entrepreneurs. Now over 350 episodes and 7 million downloads and stuff like that. When started I had no clue what I was doing. I was like; okay, I’m going to build this platform up online, I’m going to interview some people, I’m going to make money by some magical fairy way that I don’t know yet. There was all this and I had no idea what was going on and I realised I didn’t have a fan base when I started. I didn’t come from a celebrity background or anything like that. So it was really- start from scratch.

As the platform grew and why we are talking about this today, Jake, is that my entire business shifted when I discovered “Creating Online Courses”. The idea that you can monetise an online platform, blog, web-show, podcast etc. by taking something that you already know and turn it into an online course. The way that happened was by accident. I was struggling to monetise for years. I was trying to figure it out. I wanted something that was long term and scalable and didn’t have a lot of overhead, and something that I could put time into and but then I could turn it in to auto pilot. I had all these things that I was trying to do and I was doing a really, really bad job of them because I didn’t know what to do.

I was trying sponsorships and ads all these different things. People kept telling me “You know, David, you have got to create your own course, your own product, to sell to people. It’s going to hit all that criteria that you want to do. You’re not going to have to trade dollars for hours. You are going to have huge leverage. You’re going to be able to help people in a very specific way and help them get results. And you’re going to make a lot of money from it. And it’s not going to require you to be there 24/7” and that’s really how this journey began. It was this awakening of all the business models out there. I found courses in digital products to be the best fit for me at the time.

Jake: Yeah. Cool. Alright. That’s fantastic. It’s great to hear all of that. What I’d like to speak to you about before we get stuck in to it is; there are changes happening online all the time and it’s constantly evolving and one thing I’ve noticed that you have done in a very recent past is that you have moved from interviews to creating more actionable, they are still in interview, but you are trying to get your interviews more actionable. Are you seeing a trend going to more actionable training?

David: Okay, that’s a great question. I see this as both ways. What you are referring to is when I made this announcement I was switching more to training videos and stuff like that. It’s funny because I see a value in both. I think that sometimes people want, in terms of an interview or a conversation with someone, they want very actionable, step by step type stuff. But then they also sometimes just want to hear ‘behind the scene’ stuff and have a cool conversation and have something a little bit more relaxed.

So I’ve seen it as a mix. And that’s what I’m trying to do on the show. On my show, again after you have done 300 plus episodes, you have got to do some stuff to spice it up too.

And so for me moving forward what I’m trying to do is mix it up a little bit so, some traditional, more where it’s just us having a conversation with a good friend or a marketer, someone interesting. Then other ones that as can be more training based. We’re going to see what happens. I think people do love training but it really depends on the audience. I wouldn’t make a big blanket statement across the entire internet.

Jake: Yeah, absolutely. I guess the other thing to consider is; there are so many new podcast coming on the scene and they are all following a similar format so I see what you are doing as differentiating a little bit.

David: Meaning most of are just coming on and doing a conversation if you will. Is that what you were saying?

Jake: Yeah.

David: Yeah. I think it’s a testament now. What’s funny about this whole trend, or whatever you want to call it, is that- the word I used earlier ‘Mediapreneurs’ is like this middle-ground between these two very different groups of people out there.

One that’s the bloggers, if you will, I don’t mean that as a derogatory term. The bloggers, who are the people that have this great content, theses great communities, this great stuff going on but often don’t know how to monetise very well.

And then you have another community which is known as the internet marketing community who is very good at monetising, sometimes in somewhat sketchy ways, but they don’t have a platform. And it’s interesting to watch how people are more evolving to that middle ground. Also a lot of the traditional people are moving towards- ‘You know what? I do need something consistently free and awesome to send out to people and not just doing pitch, after pitch, after pitch.’ I think that’s a good thing for everyone. We’ll see how the shows end up for everyone.

Jake: Yeah. Cool. Alright, let’s get stuck in to it. Lay it out for us, David, who should be creating online courses?

David: Great question and I’m not going to give the answer like everyone, because nothings for everyone. In my opinion, the people that are most correctly positioned to create an online course now are people that have a platform and some kind of audience.

What I mean by platform- It could be anything, it could be a blog, web-show, podcast, it could be on a funny cat drawings, it could be an awesome YouTube channel, whatever it might be; some kind of platform, some kind of audience. You don’t need to have a 100,000 people; nothing like that because the way, we’ll talk about that in a few minutes, is that to have success with an online course you don’t need that many buyers to have it be successful. You do have to have some kind of audience and some kind of a platform that’s pretty much my criteria for creating a course. Well, anyone can create one, but for it to be successful.

Jake: Yeah, definitely. Most of our listeners or probably the person listening right now, are generally early stage entrepreneurs, but they’ve certainly started building a platform and they are looking at ways to bring in more traffic and how to convert that traffic to dollars. I think this really benefit to a listener today.

David: Well it’s very scalable too. Meaning what’s cool about this is; when my first course I should have done two or three years before I did it. I know my first one I should have done earlier. Because here’s the thing, once it’s out there, once it’s created, once it’s launched to the world and it’s for sale and ongoing. I suggest having it for sale not just launching it and closing it- Having it for sale! As your platform grows and your traffic grows so will your sales. It’s a nice little scalable thing for you as you build up.

Jake: Yeah definitely. Now what held you back from actually creating it earlier?

David: You know what it really was. It’s kind of funny. Here are the 2 things that really held me back. Number one was, and this was the major one until I kind of developed a system for figuring it out. I didn’t exactly know what’s a credit course on. That was my first problem. So that kind of held me back. I was like “what should I do a course on??” No idea.

The second thing that held me back was that there wasn’t really a road map out there to help put it together. I knew that there’s going to be a lot of experimentation’s and trying to figure stuff out and I was kind of a little scared of that leap for a while of kind of like oh my god I’m going to have to do this from scratch because there were some products out there to help you with it but there wasn’t really anything specific as I was looking for. So it was those 2 things for sure.

Jake: yeah cool. Alright then let’s look at that 1st point you made. How did you go about deciding what sort of a cause you are going to create?

David: Yeah. So this is the fun part and the funny thing is I appreciate you started that because a lot of people want to skip this foundation. It’s more like move in to different areas and it’s just like this is the critical moments, it’s that foundation because everything else is like easy “quote – unquote” it’s really the foundation that’s critical. So let me rephrase this, a lot of people calls to me and say “David hey, I want to create a course. What should I go learn how do to create a course on? Okay, That’s the question, and I’m like: well, it’s kind of the wrong question. here’s why, it’s not where you go learn how to do to create a course on, it’s what you already know right now that you can package up and sell to people.

So there’s something that everyone’s listening to this, has some kind of step by step knowledge that you have right now, something that you can teach people how to do and that you can package up and turn into a course. So what did I do? I had no idea. So I was thinking to myself what is it? Because often time the answer to this question is right under your nose. So what ended up happening was, this is what I did 1st. This is what I suggest you do 1st, if you have any kind of following at all, is start paying attention to the types of questions and emails that you get online in person. So if you’re getting a tweet or a Facebook message or an email or anything that comes in from your site.

Is there something that consistent that people are asking you about. Even if you think it’s extremely basic, something so simple like “oh my god how can people ask this?” that’s where some of the secret source come in. for me, I was always hearing questions like “how do I create an interview show?, how do I get a guess to say yes? How do I market the show?, how do I make money from the show? All these questions were associated with doing an interview show and that’s where one of my flag show programs came from. Basically people asking me these questions. Another part of that process is, I call this the pay attention principal because once you start paying attention for this, you’re going to start uncovering clues all over the place as to where you should create a course on.

So the 2nd step is if you already have something, great! If not you can go create something is a how to post that you put upon your site. Whether it’s on your blog or pie caster, web show, whatever it might be. This again goes back to that importance of having a platform. So putting up how to post on something. Whatever it might be, how to swing a cattle bell, how to lose 5 pounds in a week, how to re-decorate your home for less than 500 $, how to whatever it might be. Coming up with the 5 steps or the 10 steps or how to type posts and judging the temperature of that response.

Jake: yes!

David: See everyone knows what their traffic is, what their subscribers are, what that information is. So you know if something goes well or doesn’t go so well. Using your own platform to test is very inexpensive because it’s free. You just come up with stuff that you can test in there and come up with different topics. You teach people. You don’t ask them. You don’t say hey “I’m going to create a course on this.” You don’t need to do any of that kind of stuff. It’s all about how can you offer some value and test out to see what people responds to you. That’s what I started with.

I started doing one of like how to record interviews on Skype, how to get a list people to say yes to interviews. Those were like some of the posts that I did on my site and saw that it really resonate with people and that’s when these clues start to come together and turn into a course. This is what anyone can do who has a platform.

Jake: Absolutely and I certainly have to agree to it. That’s probably the vital step is not just assuming that you’ve got the market about the product but actually getting it on and making it and having the steps to back it up.

David: Yeah exactly. And the things is, another way to look at it is that, just think about what you’ve done in your life, that you can teach to other people. What have you done? Have you lost 20 pounds? Have you, whatever it might be. Because here’s the thing, at the end of the day one of the struggling points I see the people as they come up with something is that a course is all about results. It’s all about getting someone very-very tangible results. Meaning like I use weight as an example. But it doesn’t have to be that. It could be 10 pounds or losing weight, it could be gaining muscle, it could be getting out of dept. it could be whatever it is, it has to be step by step and concrete.

Jake: Yeah

David: People come to me and say I want to do a course and at the end of it you’ll feel good. What does that mean? You know what I mean? You want to have something that’s very concrete and step by step that’s what sells online for sure.

Jake: Cool. Alright, where do we go from here? We go a topic we think, we actually know because we’ve tested it now. Let’s say it would popped it on to our platform when we tested it we know it resonates. What’s the next step?

David: Yeah so this one is my little simple secret source steps here is to do a survey. I’ve tested this big time because you got to realize, once I got in to this world of course creating. I became like an obsessed crazy person. I realize if it wasn’t anyone, I needed help and I wanted to figure it out, so I interviewed hundreds of people about this and all the research there possibly could’ve being implemented and experimented and put in all these hours to figure out these stuff that break it down to this very simple things like the survey. So here’s a survey that it works and it’s so painless, that is shocking in a certain way. So what I would recommend doing is you create a survey that you post on your site, a link to the survey.

I used wufoo. It doesn’t really matter what you use. Wufoo or you can use Google docs. Doesn’t matter what you use for a survey. But all you want to do is ask for peoples name and their email and you want to ask about their questions on that subject that you’re thinking about for a course. Okay. So that’s it. Name, email, what are your questions involving blank, blank, blank. For an example for me it was name, email, I want to know what questions you have about creating your own interview show and then an open box where they can ask as many questions as they want.

There’s a few reasons to do this. No.1 is again you’re going to see now, do you get any responses. You’re going to see some people that are excited about this and you’re going to see if you got some responses. Again you don’t need a million responses for this to be valid, it’s just can you get some responses. Also you’re not getting people’s email when they do the survey and often times these people become your very best customers. A lot these early survey respondents are for crate awesome interviews my course became some of very best customers. Having that email address in there is vital and also you get to pick up a lot of things through the survey.

How people talk, the language that they use, the questions that they have and what’s funny about it with the survey is that you’re going to sit there and you’re going to be like “oh my god!” This is way to basic. I didn’t think people needed to know this. You’ll be shocked about the questions that come in on your area of expertise you realize how much you actually know. Because it’s sort of like that plot of the expert if you will. You know something and you assume everyone else knows it when no one knows it. Very few people know it.

So you put that survey out and you spend basically what you can to market and promote that survey. Meaning like not necessary money. But I’m saying you’re putting under blog, putting on a site, putting it on social media, email blasting out to your current subscribers. Everything that you can do to get eyes on that survey are critical. One more tip on that, notice I didn’t say anything about like mentioning that you have a course, you’re thinking about doing a course, you have a course coming out, nothing like that. All you’re basically asking is for questions. Because you want to help people and later on you’re going to turn that in to a course. But you’d be surprised on how much data you can actually get from this and also it really starts to become the outline of your course.

Jake: Cool. It’s just making so much sense and I guess a lot of things in business, once you break it down, its quite simple and I really love that. Ok so we’ve created this survey, we got all respondents, all responses. What do you do with that?

David: At that point, it’s kind of decision time. It’s like am I going to go forward with this or not? It’s like if you’re not feeling it, if you don’t feel the temperature is hot enough, if you’re not feeling it, you go back to step one. Right? It’s like go back to beginning. Down the shooting, try it again. If you like where you’re going with this then you’re starting to feel like people are excited and you’re excited about this and you got something going on.

Really that it becomes time to start the plan out, the actual course and what the mistake that I see here is people start to just kind of running gun. They just say “ok I’m just going just start creating modules or I figure how to record it whatever might be and they still more to do on the foundation here, foundation is so critical to a course

And so you really want map out everything before you go forward and one of the key things where people get hung up here and this is the time do the step and next step is really come up with name for your course right. People get hung up on this name. It’s unbelievable. The name does not matter of the course. Because the hook and the positioning and all that kind of stuff that’s going to matter of lot more than the name. The name could be something very simple.

So you can go a something functional, you can go something clever that does not really matter. The most important thing when you choose your name here, which is the next step, is to have a name where you can get the URL over the .Com. You know I don’t care what it is as long as Because that is the most important thing when it comes to a name.

Jake: Got you. All right fantastic. So we then got the name. I guess format would be potentially the next thing, is it?

David: You know actually I don’t even go to the format yet. As at the name of your course it’s really about coming up with the hook. And this is the most important thing really at the entire course creating process, because lot of stuff can be very simple, but the hook or the X factor is what separates your course from the market right. Because if you see there is other courses out there in the market, on topic or a similar topic. That’s a good thing, that’s a positive.

Lot of people gets scared away about that, they say like “oh my god there is someone else is doing what I want to do” that’s a great thing. Because its shows there is market for it right. And you want have a market, you want to have buyers for something like that.

So other courses out there, that’s great. Like I saw some other courses on my topic, that as a great thing, but when you have other courses, you are going to have to separate yourself from the market right. So here are some of the key questions you can ask yourself as you develop your hook. What are my results with what I’m teaching?

So meaning like, did you use the methods to make six figures yourself, did you the use the methods to lose weight, did you use the methods to find a girlfriend or boyfriend? Nothing beat personal experience here, when you start to separate from the pack right.

So a key question to ask is what are my results? Another key question to ask is what else is out there in the market? and what areas do I feel like I’m doing things differently than them? This is what I call finding the gap, Ok. And this is so important, when you are coming up with your hook. Right. Because, what is the gap?

So for example, I saw a product that was helping people create their own show online, but it’s way too technical, like way, you have to be like the biggest tech-nerd in the history of mankind to figure out this thing right. I was like man mine is not going to be design for like the tech-nerd. It’s going to be design for non tech-nerds. People that don’t want to spend zillion hours on technology.

And I saw another one, that was just like a, it would focus on doing a web show, but not specifically in interview shows. I knew I can get more specific by doing interview show.

So by researching that’s why there’re so many successful fitness products out there, they all have slightly different hooks. It’s just a give an example. And that’s where I think it’s very important. What else is on your market and how do I feel like I’m doing things differently from them. The other thing to think about is, the people love step by step and systems.

So that is so important. People love phrases like step by step or systems, because you remember systems sell here. People love to feel like they’re been held, step by step by their hand, as they go here to create their course. And I think that is very important when it comes down to positioning your course.

Jake: Would you say that the goal of any course or any paid training is actually simplified for your reader or your viewer? In terms of there is so much information out there online. You can access everything. There is no doubt about that. But the issue is I guess he access for information can actually be quite confusing.

David: Yeah that’s what you are doing because, such a good point. Thank you for pointing that out Jake. Because you see this happen all time, like people make that argument well “Oh my god there’s so much information out there on my subject” or you know people going to be willing to pay for what they can go an Google or you tube and find for free, something like that. The answer is ‘yes’ because here’s what people paying for, number one they’re paying for your prospective on this right, like you that’s one thing.

Number two they’re basically paying you to be a creator of give me the very best stuff that 80-20 row give me the 20. So that I can go implement this and I don’t have to deal with all the fluff and the B-S and rest of stuff. Because people think when creating an online course this is like a miss conception, a dent to throw in everything in the kitchen sinks. That was kind of like it internet marketing 1.0 back in the days. Who put like create these courses they’re like 400 modules something like that, like 3000 page supplement.

No one wants that kind of stuff and people start to think like Oh if I need to justify the price I am charging for this. I need to include everything it’s actually the opposite. You want to include just what going to get people to that point you know even if its’ a one sentence your entire thing I hope its more than that. But you know if it’s one sentence but it can teach him something that can get him a result people don’t need everything they just need the right things.

You’re there as the creator and bring it us all together and packaging it up for him. So not searching through YouTube but 3000 ads and Google and all these different confusing things you’re making it simple and step by step.

Jake: Yeah I guess you really want is action right

David: Right and that’s at the end of the day what you’re looking for, I mean you’re thinking about how can I simply guide them from step one to whatever to get them the result that they want and you know because the end of the day anyone can go out there and create a course right. like you can go, out there anyone technically create a course but the longevity of doing this is of course getting people to actually results and you know that all comes down to really execution with all this

Yeah, absolutely that’s the reason for all these pre planning. You could easy analogy of Olympics swimmer they trained for two or three years to prepare for a race where they’ll be potentially in the water for 40 seconds

David: Exactly, yes. Actually well said.

Jake: What’s the next step David where do we go from here?

David: I think the next step for sure that point is really that you want to price your course before you do it. This is critical because you know pricing can make a big difference to say the least. Here’s my suggestion on pricing and this comes from a tip actually when I was working on one of my first courses. I talk to two good friends of mine one is Ryan Lee and the other one is Marie Forleo you know great all my entrepreneurs. I said you know “I am thinking about charging this what do you think?” They said you’re way too low and I said “What do you mean I am way too low” that’s not very low at all and they said “well think about this way and Ryan said that it’s going to be difficult or easier paying that is, how you look at, its going to take effort to market and promote any course online, anything.

Its just as easy or difficult to be how you want to look at, to promote a higher price course than it is a lower price course. From a marketing prospective. I said “That s interesting” and then Marie was saying that if you look at all the hours that you spent learning this and creating it and all these different things you can justify a higher value for your course. So one of the biggest mistake that I see people do is they price their courses way too low.

Here’s the few reasons why that doesn’t work. Number one is that you know the lower you go the less quality customers you going to get its just fact of the matter. Number two is that it will require a lot of customers for you to be successful course. If you priced that at 67 $ something like that its going to take a lot of customers to get to 6 figures but if you price placed at 497 $ okay, it only takes few hundreds customers to get six figures. Actually it takes exactly 200 customers to get to six figures and so one of the mistakes I see as for people price it too low.

So my suggestion on pricing for folks is to go out and research and look at your market and where is at and be at least equal to the top people in your market when it comes to creating an online product. So if you noticed at the top people in your market are charging 297 $ that’s at least where you needs to be.

If you see the top people are charging 1500 $ that’s at least where you need to be. Because there’s far more power and longevity been a premium brand, being a SAX if you will. I supposed to you kind of Down in the Walmart, Kmart range and that is like kind of the keys of why you do this, you’re not doing this to “quote – unquote” to rip people off or anything like that, because you are offering a huge amount of value to them, but you want to be a premium brand in your market. So one of the mistakes I see again is pricing stuff way-way-way too low.

My first cause was 497 $. Just to give you guys a scope. Its’ not about coming out with some super cheap thing and then may be more expensive later. Don’t be afraid here to because you are going to putting some effort and work in to this that you know to charge, what you think it’s going to be worth.

Jake: Let’s look at two things with that, I guess for me the important part is about perception with your customer, it’s going to be much easier to get someone to buy in to the course and actually take action, if they paid a lot more for something.

David: Its’ so true, it’s like, yeah if you pay 50 bucks for something you going to be like, you know but it’s all relative but I just want to say that’s not a lot for you in you like or okay, I just kind of put it down the back burner.

But if you pay, yeah it’s a good point, if you pay thousand bucks, where you are going to be like, you know I mean get my darn earned money’s worth of this I may go do it. I think that there is something to be said there, you get a lot believe or not, you get a lot less refunds are problems are issue with the higher prices right. Because you are attracting more of a premium crowd that is actually going to do it.

The lower price …like I can’t tell you how many people kind of mainly I talked to them, you know like privately, or whatever friends of mine. Master minds at event centers… say oh god the lower price people drive me crazy. You know not that their bad people, but you know what, they are crazy people sometimes. [Laugh] so you got to be careful there.

Jake: Well I think just and again if you can have people to take action, then they potentially…then they more like to become raving fans and you are going to get much better their testimonial and potentially life long customers.

David: Yeah exactly I mean once you go, it’s like the first one the hardest, I mean like, once you get that going, then you are really off to the racers and I think you know even today on this conversation, we covered like so many foundational things and again that’s really, the key to get in the stuff going in terms of where you can think about now, cause I don’t want to give you guy too much you like, oh my god I can’t go do all of this. I think there is plenty of information that you guys have now, that you know people can go out and say, “Ok I can go now and start paying attention to this” Send an e mail out of my lessons, send out a survey and think about the positioning and think about the pricing and think about these things. I think lot of folks are going to be out to a great start here for sure.

Jake: Yeah, absolutely. That’s really I like to say as well. If 90 % these interviews covered the planning of creating an online courses the rest of it educate setting number of times already, it’s simple, It’s easy, basically the course has a structure that you follow, that is basically interchangeable depending on what course you are doing, it’s the planning and ensuring you got the right content for your customers which is the important part.

David: Exactly.

Jake: All right David thanks very much for coming on this show, I really appreciated I’ve got lot out of the personally I know our listeners as well, where can we find out more information about you and also about your upcoming course that you will be releasing.

David: Yeah really you know the best ways to go honestly for everyone and Jake you might have a special info folks too but create awesome online courses, you can send over and I have got free training for everyone. So basically if you been listening to this and you want a kind of diving little bit deeper, I’ve got like super high quality, it’s not like the B-S free training that you see sometime out there.

This is like good stuff. And I got free multi video series for you and an opportunity to join my program at the end, if it’s a fit for you as well but either way I hope you enjoy the free training over at our

Jake: Absolutely in this say if you have never listening to the rise to the top makes sure you do it David; he is one of the most entertaining interviewers out there. Who one of my favourites.

David: Oh I appreciate that and of course you can check out there the and I appreciate that kind of words Jake for sure I was fond of that.

Jake: Alright David thanks very much for coming on the episode, I love that and I know our listeners certainly has is well.